Dragon's Crown |OT| -- NOW AVAILABLE! Hands-On Impressions Inside!

Read my further posts. I know you can spend money on thoes games, if you do then by all means you can be considered a video game player.

dvader654

What the hell? Did you just say that? I put in 75 hours in The Sims Social on Facebook. I didn't spend a cent on it. So when I played that I was not a video game player? People who play Team Fortress 2 and League of Legends aren't video game players because they opt not to buy any additional content? Did this bullshit actually come out of your mouth?

You put significant amount of time into it that is an investment of some kind. Though I would say if all you do is play a free facebook game and nothing else you really dont impact this industry at all.

Another are you seriously telling me there are people that exist that have only played a free game like TF2 and DOTA? You seriously believe anyone that is playing those games has NEVER played another game, never bought a game and never will play another game in their life. Cause that is just plain stupid. You know the difference dont bring me that crap.

Yes UIF you are exactly like a 70 year old grandma that so happens to play a flash game every once and a while... if you don't understand the difference I can't help you.

dvader654

You are so narrowminded and you couldn't be more wrong. You have no understanding of this industry beyond what is being served to you by the likes of Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft. No understanding of PC gaming, free-to-play or social.

If you think that the paying customers of free-to-play games are the only ones important to free-to-play developers and publishers, you're dead wrong. Only about 3% of people pay for additional content. Companies have gone on record to say that the other 97% are of the utmost importance as they create and increase value simply by playing the game, being part of the community and spreading the word. There is no profit unless you attract massive numbers of players who don't pay for anything.

I find it amazing that you believe it is stupid to assume that someone who has played Dota will not play some other game yet you find it perfectly reasonable to assume that someone who plays Facebook games will never play a console game, for example.

For your information, yes, there are people that play nothing but the likes of League of Legends just as there are people that play Facebook games as well as console or PC games. I know this for a fact from personal experience. It's not anywhere near as simple as you're making it out to be. You assume too much based on your extremely limited views.

Stick with console market assessments, you're well-versed there. Everywhere else you're completely out of your element.

Some AWESOME images from the game!

Some AWESOME images from the game!Phantom_Leo

Vanillaware sure knows how to make some beautiful games.

No. In fact, I would like to see more over sexualized women like this depicted in video games.

No. In fact, I would like to see more over sexualized women like this depicted in video games.

HipHopBeats

You know what? I completely changed my mind. There is such a thing as offensive imagery when it comes to Fantasy video games:

Jason Schreier you have my humblest apologies!

Where was the indignation back in the 1990's?

:lol:

Where was the indignation back in the 1990's?

:lol:

Phantom_Leo

[QUOTE="HipHopBeats"]

No. In fact, I would like to see more over sexualized women like this depicted in video games.

Buckhannah

If anything, I'm more offended by trailers like this which label all male gamers as mindless sexbots. As ridiculous as Dragon's Crown artwrok is, at least it's just 'here, look at some oversized boobs' vs. buy this game because you're a zombie idiot.

If anything, I'm more offended by trailers like this which label all male gamers as mindless sexbots. As ridiculous as Dragon's Crown artwrok is, at least it's just 'here, look at some oversized boobs' vs. buy this game because you're a zombie idiot.

HipHopBeats

Holy crap that was painful to watch. For several reasons  :shock:

Anyways, has anyone posted this yet? The artist explains his reason for drawing the characters like he did. I think it kind of sucks that his art has caused such a huge uproar for all the wrong reasons. Sure, some of his drawings may be a bit over the top and highly sexual, but the man does some beautiful artwork.

Translation: I can't refute what you wrote so I'll stick to making personal insults.

You bore me, Capaho.

Let me know when you are prepared to actually engage the issue at hand, assuming your arguments extend beyond the superficial.

Grammaton-Cleric

Where was the indignation back in the 1990's?

:lol:

Phantom_Leo

Kotaku is such scum. I hope their manufactured controversy doesn't hurt this game's sales.

You know what? I completely changed my mind. There is such a thing as offensive imagery when it comes to Fantasy video games:

Jason Schreier you have my humblest apologies!

Phantom_Leo

I know quite a few females who got hooked on Farmville and other f2p games on Facebook, none of them have ever bought or played other games before or since. I'm not saying this is some kind of standard, just what I've seen in my personal experiences. I can only guess that I'm not the only one who has seen similar patterns like this.

Holy crap are seriously going to sit there and argue that it is more likely for someone who plays a facebook game to be more of a person who probably enjoys many games than someone who plays a game like DOTA. SERIOUSLY. All you are doing is ignoring the big picture and picking out a little example from your life as if it is some proof. Well no crap there might be a few people that only play one game and there maybe someone who started playing on facebook and went on to play many other games, I would not argue against that. I am saying it is damn clear if you are playing something as complex as DOTA you have played other games before.  That is less likely to be the case with a person who plays a facebook game or a random flash game. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING. It is LESS LIKELY. I am not speaking in absolutes as you so claim I am. And if you seriously want to dispute that someone who plays facebook is more likely to be a well rounded gamer than someone who plays DOTA I would love to see you try. 

Meanwhile you are completely going off topic because you so love to lecture me about a bunch of crap I already know about. No shit free to play works, thanks for the heads up UIF you are such a genius. As usual you keep going off track. I am speaking about a segment of the population that does not care one bit about gaming, won't really spend any significant amount of money on it, but just like everyone has a TV, today everyone has access to games. Just cause you play one every once and a while does not mean you are statistically relevant to the gaming industry. In big picture terms sure everything needs to be taken into account but IN THIS THREAD we are talking about and extremely niche game that basically gaming ethusiasts are the only ones who are going to care. So once again to make this damn clear, IN THIS THREAD a poll about gamers in general, a poll that probably includes many people that will never come to a forum like this or ever hear of a game like Dragon's Crown is not really an accurate assessment of who this game is trageted for. If we were in a thread about the entire gaming spectrum from the most casual to the most hardcore then yes that poll is just fine and I wouldn't be trying to discuss who is more of a gamer and what not.

But as usual you just ignore the thread, ignore the point just to poke a stick at me. 

dvader654

Less likely, more likely. I don't know. Neither do you. All I know is that there are plenty of people who only play Dota, League of Legends, World of Tanks, Team Fortress 2 and dozens of others free-to-play games and never spend a dime on them. Today there is a huge number of high-quality free-to-play games so yes, it is entirely possible that a lot of these people won't buy anything ever.

You claim that I'm lecturing you about crap you already know, yet you once again showcase the opposite. Free-to-play isn't about spending the money so you count. Money has nothing to do with someone being a gamer, this is what I have a problem with and this is what you're still proposing. It is an utterly ignorant, elitist and offensive notion. Especially in this day and age when things work like that only in the console market. Everywhere else the gaming landscape has changed completely. That's why I'm lecturing, because you don't seem to understand the fundamentals. You claim you do, but then go off talking nonsense again using some imaginary paramaters based on limited and antiquated views and concepts.

This thread, this forum and this website do not exist in a vacuum. I don't care for Dragon's Crown. I am interested in Plants vs. Zombies Adventures that's coming to Facebook this summer. According to you, that shouldn't be possible.

Must've been a slow week to try to make some controversy over this character-art design. -_-

i dont and i suspect most guys wouldnt, but women might and they will just add this to their list of how they are negatively objectified in video games.

I don't need to refute anything you have to say because I really don't care and your comments tend to be self-refuting in any case. Your utter lack of understanding of and sensitivity to the diversity issues that myself and others have commented on is a case in point. You still don't get it. I offer my opinions, observations and perceptions without expectations. You are the one who appears to be obsessed merely with winning arguments and your pseudo-logical constructs have meaning only to you. I don't usually read your posts unless they're in direct reply to something I've said, and even that's no certainty anymore. Your self-centered, immature behavior combined with your bad manners are not noteworthy except for the fact that such behavior is rather disconcerting for someone who claims to be a teacher. I wouldn't want my kids under your tutelage.

capaho

So you take the time to continuously insult me yet you can't be bothered to actually answer, directly, any of the many points I made that rebut your arguments?

And I'm the pseudo-intellectual?

I also love your cryptic little responses, such as claiming my arguments essentially self-refute.

Care to give me an example of an argument that demonstrates such self-refutation?

As to the type of teacher I am, I've spent the last seven years working with a student populace where 82% of the households are at or below the poverty line and despite this widespread socio-economic status I have continuously made significant gains with those students who are my charge.

So basically, while armchair-intellectuals like you traffic in the dull, detached and measured vernacular of political correctness I've been working in a school district where the vast majority of the students are of a non-white ethnicity, thus diversity isn't some buzzword but rather a stark reality I deal with on a daily basis.

Again, you bore me and if my arguments and intellect are so vapid I invite you to prove it by actually arguing and rebutting the points I've made.

As to the issue of player demographics:

Truthfully, I've been guilty of being an elitist as it pertains to casual gaming and in retrospect that is something that I probably shouldn't have done.

Games are games and while clearly many of us take this medium seriously, for most people, gaming is a casual time-killer and nothing more. I agree entirely with Up In Flames and others who are advocating the notion that ultimately, gaming is gaming, be it the hardcore enthusiast or the person playing an IOS title.

[QUOTE="capaho"]

I don't need to refute anything you have to say because I really don't care and your comments tend to be self-refuting in any case. Your utter lack of understanding of and sensitivity to the diversity issues that myself and others have commented on is a case in point. You still don't get it. I offer my opinions, observations and perceptions without expectations. You are the one who appears to be obsessed merely with winning arguments and your pseudo-logical constructs have meaning only to you. I don't usually read your posts unless they're in direct reply to something I've said, and even that's no certainty anymore. Your self-centered, immature behavior combined with your bad manners are not noteworthy except for the fact that such behavior is rather disconcerting for someone who claims to be a teacher. I wouldn't want my kids under your tutelage.

Grammaton-Cleric

So you take the time to continuously insult me yet you can't be bothered to actually answer, directly, any of the many points I made that rebut your arguments?

And I'm the pseudo-intellectual?

I also love your cryptic little responses, such as claiming my arguments essentially self-refute.

Care to give me an example of an argument that demonstrates such self-refutation?

As to the type of teacher I am, I've spent the last seven years working with a student populace where 82% of the households are at or below the poverty line and despite this widespread socio-economic status I have continuously made significant gains with those students who are my charge.

So basically, while armchair-intellectuals like you traffic in the dull, detached and measured vernacular of political correctness I've been working in a school district where the vast majority of the students are of a non-white ethnicity, thus diversity isn't some buzzword but rather a stark reality I deal with on a daily basis.

Again, you bore me and if my arguments and intellect are so vapid I invite you to prove it by actually arguing and rebutting the points I've made.

Were you intending to provide me with yet another example of a self-centered, immature reply? That is a good example of your self-refutation, your point and ultimately your credibility were undermined by your own behavior.  You responded in a way that exemplifies what I said in my previous comment about you.

As to the issue of diversity, you keep trying to concoct an argument by stringing bits and pieces of googled information together with flimsy logic.  You are always scrutinizing the parts without ever comprehending the whole.  You're trying to justify your viewpoint with statistical information of dubious value all the while failing to see the humanity right in front of your face.  For those of us here complaining about a lack of diversity in character design, it's an issue that hits us personally.  It isn't an abstract issue for us, we actually feel it every time we have to trudge through a game full of characters we can't really relate to.  It's a personal issue we can feel that no statistical argument can address.  All you're doing by trying to justify it is to merely provide yet another example of the overriding insensitivity of the gaming world.

In any case, the rest of us have moved on.  You should to.

And so Jim has sounded off on this. 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7196-Boob-Wars-and-Dragon-Crowns

I normally DO NOT like Jim Sterling, but even I must admit that video was GREAT for several reasons:

(1) It gave a ton of footage of Dragon's Crown not previously seen before, highlighting not only the characters and their abundance of attacks and magic, but also a HUGE bestiary featuring a diversity of creatures I didn't even begin to imagine were in the game! EXCELLENT!

(2) His commentary about how gamers don't normally DISCUSS issues, but when they DO, some AMAZING, thoughtful, and constructive ideas can be produced as a result... **as long as they can get past the idea of not buying one system over another** 

:lol:

Well played, Mr. Sterling... Well played!

Anyone who has read this topic at all should really take the 6 minutes and WATCH THE VIDEO!

Carnage, Shame-us, Grammaton, UpInFlames, Vader, Capaho, etc, etc...

Thanks, JPL!

And so Jim has sounded off on this. 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7196-Boob-Wars-and-Dragon-Crowns

JustPlainLucas

Jim Sterling can seem like a massive troll at times, but he's absolutely right in that video. 

Thanks, JPL!

Phantom_Leo

Were you intending to provide me with yet another example of a self-centered, immature reply? That is a good example of your self-refutation, your point and ultimately your credibility were undermined by your own behavior.  You responded in a way that exemplifies what I said in my previous comment about you.

As to the issue of diversity, you keep trying to concoct an argument by stringing bits and pieces of googled information together with flimsy logic.  You are always scrutinizing the parts without ever comprehending the whole.  You're trying to justify your viewpoint with statistical information of dubious value all the while failing to see the humanity right in front of your face.  For those of us here complaining about a lack of diversity in character design, it's an issue that hits us personally.  It isn't an abstract issue for us, we actually feel it every time we have to trudge through a game full of characters we can't really relate to.  It's a personal issue we can feel that no statistical argument can address.  All you're doing by trying to justify it is to merely provide yet another example of the overriding insensitivity of the gaming world.

In any case, the rest of us have moved on.  You should to.

capaho

Clearly you haven't moved on because you continue to respond and despite attacking my ego and claiming I'm self-centered you seem just as resolute in proving your own mettle and intellectual worth, which, according to you, is the crux of my own problem.  

And even assuming I was acting in an immature fashion (bear in mind you are the one who keeps slinging personal attacks) how I present the material doesn't change the validity of the evidence I've provided. (Evidence you remain unable to refute)

The rest of your cryptic drivel demonstrates your inability (or outright fear) to stay directly on point. Attacking my humanity is not only irrelevant to the discussion but is laughably droll given the fact that the artwork in question is rooted in an extreme and clearly unrealistic construct. You continue to prove just how vapid and intellectually bereft of logic your cheap political correctness truly is and your faux angst and outrage is transparent and as phony as the rest of the tripe you dish out.

You also seem to fail to grasp that those statistics I offered were a direct response to erroneous statements regarding the actual demographics of those who indulge in this medium. Regardless, those statistics are relevant to the discussion as a whole and they certainly represent more substantial evidence than you've offered.

And if the matter is closed then be done with it. For somebody who insults me at every turn and claims to want nothing to do with what I write your actions speak to the contrary. It was you who responded to my initial post to another member and it is you who continues to respond despite being an allegedly superior being in possession of so many more mature characteristics than I. At every step of this argument I've given you the opportunity to actually respond to the issue and instead you engage in personal attacks and avoid the relevant discussion entirely.

I do think the issue of diversity is a discussion worth having and I'll gladly and calmly engage in said discussion if that is something you want to do. If the matter is closed then I'll shrug my shoulders and walk away but continue to attack me on an intellectual and personal level and clearly I'm going to respond.

I normally DO NOT like Jim Sterling, but even I must admit that video was GREAT for several reasons:

(1) It gave a ton of footage of Dragon's Crown not previously seen before, highlighting not only the characters and their abundance of attacks and magic, but also a HUGE bestiary featuring a diversity of creatures I didn't even begin to imagine were in the game! EXCELLENT!

(2) His commentary about how gamers don't normally DISCUSS issues, but when they DO, some AMAZING, thoughtful, and constructive ideas can be produced as a result... **as long as they can get past the idea of not buying one system over another** 

:lol:

Well played, Mr. Sterling... Well played!

Anyone who has read this topic at all should really take the 6 minutes and WATCH THE VIDEO!

Carnage, Shame-us, Grammaton, UpInFlames, Vader, Capaho, etc, etc...

Phantom_Leo

He did summarize the core issues rather well and his call for rational dialog rather than argument was certainly timely advise for this discussion.

Clearly you haven't moved on because you continue to respond and despite attacking my ego and claiming I'm self-centered you seem just as resolute in proving your own mettle and intellectual worth, which, according to you, is the crux of my own problem.  

And even assuming I was acting in an immature fashion (bear in mind you are the one who keeps slinging personal attacks) how I present the material doesn't change the validity of the evidence I've provided. (Evidence you remain unable to refute)

The rest of your cryptic drivel demonstrates your inability (or outright fear) to stay directly on point. Attacking my humanity is not only irrelevant to the discussion but is laughably droll given the fact that the artwork in question is rooted in an extreme and clearly unrealistic construct. You continue to prove just how vapid and intellectually bereft of logic your cheap political correctness truly is and your faux angst and outrage is transparent and as phony as the rest of the tripe you dish out.

You also seem to fail to grasp that those statistics I offered were a direct response to erroneous statements regarding the actual demographics of those who indulge in this medium. Regardless, those statistics are relevant to the discussion as a whole and they certainly represent more substantial evidence than you've offered.

And if the matter is closed then be done with it. For somebody who insults me at every turn and claims to want nothing to do with what I write your actions speak to the contrary. It was you who responded to my initial post to another member and it is you who continues to respond despite being an allegedly superior being in possession of so many more mature characteristics than I. At every step of this argument I've given you the opportunity to actually respond to the issue and instead you engage in personal attacks and avoid the relevant discussion entirely.

I do think the issue of diversity is a discussion worth having and I'll gladly and calmly engage in said discussion if that is something you want to do. If the matter is closed then I'll shrug my shoulders and walk away but continue to attack me on an intellectual and personal level and clearly I'm going to respond.

Grammaton-Cleric

It is not my intention to insult you, I hope you come to realize that at some point in the manner in which I have responded to you.  However, if you want to taunt me like a child expect me to scold you like one.  You might want to consider that your own communication style is more provocative than you realize.  For your own sake, you might want to work on a kinder, gentler style if you want a more favorable response.  Disagreement and argument are not the same thing.

Beyond that, let me spell it out for you.  I don't participate in this forum to entertain you.  In fact, I am simply not interested in the kind of argument you seem driven to engender.  You can't always get what you want.  Get over it.

You might want to consider that your own communication style is more provocative than you realize. For your own sake, you might want to work on a kinder, gentler style if you want a more favorable response.capaho

The problem with having a discussion about diversity or sexism is that this is the wrong game to be used as a launching pad. Clearly this game is recycling tropes from the sword-and-sorcery genre and that genre has always been about buxom ladies, muscled warriors, and plenty of purposeful exaggeration.

And despite my tussle with Capaho, he did bring up an interesting point earlier in the thread regarding the eventual widespread use of fully customizable characters in games. Giving the player the freedom to modify any and all cosmetic aspects of their character, along with body types, ethnicity and gender designation, would go a long way to quelling the controversy entirely.

The only potential downside to this course of widespread design is that any developer looking to tell a unique story with a specific protagonist might have that original vision compromised if they feel forced into making such customizable options available to the player.

Personally, since I don't pay much attention to the narrative in games and consider most protagonists to be malleable, blank slates, I don't think I'd mind if the custom option became the norm.

That way, if I need my medieval sorceress to have breasts the size of monster truck tires, her design is an issue between me and my therapist.

 

It is not my intention to insult you, I hope you come to realize that at some point in the manner in which I have responded to you.  However, if you want to taunt me like a child expect me to scold you like one.  You might want to consider that your own communication style is more provocative than you realize.  For your own sake, you might want to work on a kinder, gentler style if you want a more favorable response.  Disagreement and argument are not the same thing.

Beyond that, let me spell it out for you.  I don't participate in this forum to entertain you.  In fact, I am simply not interested in the kind of argument you seem driven to engender.  You can't always get what you want.  Get over it.

capaho

Actually, your intention to insult was clear and has remained a consistent aspect of the prose you write. You were overtly insulting and disparaged this entire forum back during that entire Sleeping Dogs debacle and your initial response to me in this thread was overtly insulting so please don't condescend and insult my intelligence.

As to my style of argumentation, I aggressively argue, rebut and refute and I make no apologies for attacking weak, poorly substantiated opinions. Attacking an opinion is entirely different than attacking somebody on a personal level, which is something you've done continuously since entering this forum. You are in no position to lecture me on etiquette or communication skills and given my lengthy tenure in this forum I'd venture to say I've garnered far more respect among my gaming-enthusiast peers than you, evidenced by one of our long-time members admonishing your behavior in this very thread.

But I'm all for civility and if you want to try this again I'm more than happy to erase the past and move forward.

I think the topic is worthy of intelligent discussion.

[QUOTE="capaho"]You might want to consider that your own communication style is more provocative than you realize. For your own sake, you might want to work on a kinder, gentler style if you want a more favorable response.Buckhannah

Not only are you correct, but at no time did I ever attack him or anyone else personally nor was I particularly harsh.

Some people have serious difficulty discerning the difference between attacking opinions versus the person writing those opinions and the problem has become more pronounced in the last couple of years as new members have joined this place. Some of these people think their opinion should exist in a vacuum and any attempt to refute their musings is some manner of nasty, personal assault on them as a whole.

That said, you clearly understsnd the difference thus you'll be a welcome addition to this place.

[QUOTE="capaho"]

Who really cares, I'm not going after the Pulitzer Prize for Forum Posts here.

Grammaton-Cleric

Sleeping Dogs bit me!

Give it a rest already!